Welcome, fellow Sanderson fans and Cosmere enthusiasts, to ::ominous chord:: the beginning of the Battle of Thaylen City. We’re poised at the top of the roller coaster in this chapter, waiting for the descent. The calm before the Everstorm, if you will. And here’s where the POVs really begin to start switching as well, as Sanderson generally tends to do in his climaxes. We’ve got a lot to discuss, so without further ado…
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread – if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
This week’s reread is Cosmere-spoiler-free. Read on with no fear of spoilers from other books!
L: I would like to take just a teensy moment to point out that Alice and I won’t be engaging in as much speculation from here on out. The beta read for Rhythm of War has begun, and we don’t want to risk letting anything slip that we shouldn’t. So if you want speculation and theorizing, you may have to turn to the comments section.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah, Venli
WHERE: Thaylen City
WHEN: 1174.2.8.1 (most of the rest of the book happens on this day)
The battle is coming. In Thaylen City, Dalinar prepares to make a final stand, alone (he believes). Adolin, Kaladin, Shallan, and their spren stand outside of the city in Shadesmar, unable to approach as the Oathgate is guarded by an army of Fused. Jasnah faces the knowledge that Renarin is corrupted and a traitor, and prepares to do the unthinkable. Venli stands with the Fused and the Singers, questioning her place in this battle, as Odium himself arrives to personally oversee it. He summons forth Nergaoul, the Unmade which controls the Thrill, to fight for his side. Teft, wallowing in guilt, is horrified to realize that Urithiru is also under attack. On the walls of Thaylen City, Navani watches as a creature of legend rises from the stone itself. As the army of Fused begins to cross over from Shadesmar to the physical realm, Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin hatch a scheme that they hope will allow Shallan to access the Oathgate and allow them to cross over.
Beginnings
Title: The Wrong Passion
“These have the wrong Passion,” he said. “The ones who attacked Kholinar did so gladly.”
A: This is in context of the former Thaylen parshmen, who don’t really want to attack Thaylen City.
Heralds: Talenelat (Talenel, Taln.) Herald of War. Dependable / Resourceful. Stonewards. Chach, aka Chanarach (Chana). Brave/Obedient. Dustbringers. Role: Guard
L: Well, Taln is pretty obviously here because war is on the horizon. Lots of characters are displaying bravery—Dalinar, Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin, Navani, Jasnah. They’re looking at the train barreling towards them and standing firm.
Icon: Double Eye (signifying many POV characters)
Epigraph:
They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging.
—From the Eila Stele
L: We already discussed this when it was revealed, so I don’t think it necessarily needs more discussion here.
A: You’re right, but I have to ask just one teensy question: They must have already been taking on the various forms, though only the ones natural to Roshar. How much different is that than bonding spren and manipulating the Surges?
Thematic Thoughts
“Even if we did,” Syl whispered, “where would we go? They hold Celebrant. They’re watching the Oathgate, so they’re probably watching the others…”
Shallan sank down on the obsidian ground.
L: In terms of story structure, we’ve reached the “Bad Guys Close In” moment. Depending on which theory of story structure you follow, this has many different names. The one I use most often is from Blake Snyder’s Save the Cat book and relates more closely to film scripts, but story structure is remarkably similar across genres and types. In the Hero’s Journey, this would be the Abyss. If you follow Dan Wells’ Seven Point Story Structure, it’s Pinch Point 2. It’s the moment when our heroes appear to have lost everything they’ve worked for. Dalinar’s coalition has crumbled. Kaladin and co’s quest has failed. Everything is poised on the brink of ultimate destruction. (Fun fact: once you’ve done enough analyzing and study of story structure, every movie ever made will be forever ruined for you.)
A: The only good thing about a situation like this is that you know it has to get better now. It’s almost the end of the book, and it’s a story, and … it just has to get better! (Especially since Sanderson doesn’t generally do complete grimdark.)
Stories & Songs
Those are the spirits of the dead, she realized. Fused who haven’t yet chosen a body. Most were twisted to the point where she barely recognized them as singers. Two were roughly the size of buildings.
One dominated even these: a creature of swirling violence, tall as a small hill, seemingly made up entirely of red smoke.
L: Later it’s revealed that some of these are the thunderclasts, which is really interesting to me! The thunderclasts are themselves Fused, and not something else entirely. It makes a lot of sense.
A: That took me by surprise, because from Dalinar’s Purelake vision, I had assumed the thunderclasts were formed by a particular kind of Voidspren, rather than Fused. Partly, at that time we didn’t know about the Fused, I guess. I hadn’t really given it any further thought until we got to this part, but yes, it does make sense that it would take a Fused soul.
L: I’m assuming that the big one is the one that possesses Amaram (and Moash towards the end). Or at least… I hope so, because something bigger and badder than that… well, I’m afraid to contemplate it!
Buy the Book
Rhythm of War
A: I’m not 100% certain about “the big one.” The way it’s described in this passage made me assume it was Yelig-Nar, waiting for his chance with Amaram, but I think it must be Nergaoul. Venli only mentions one other “red churning power” kind of entity in her various POVs in this chapter, so… I’m still not sure. (Okay, I just “cheated” and looked ahead. Yelig-Nar is described as black smoke, so I think the red-smoke thing has to be Nergaoul.)
I also have to note something I’m not sure I registered at first: those “hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren” they see in Shadesmar have to be these same Fused spirits. It’s not going to be fun in the Physical to have all of those Fused take bodies and start fighting, but it will sure be nice to get them out of the way here in Shadesmar.
Lines and cracks split the stone, and then an enormous stone arm pulled itself from the ground—the fractures having outlined its hand, forearm, elbow, and upper arm.
A monster easily thirty feet tall pulled itself from the stone, dropping chips and dust on the army below. Like a skeleton made of rock, it had a wedge-shaped head with deep, molten red eyes.
L: THUNDERCLAST AHOY!
A: We’re all gonna die! In searing paaaaaaiiin!
One crawled into the stone ground, somehow inhabiting it like a spren taking residence in a gemheart. The stone became its form.
A: I find this a fascinating description, with the spren inhabiting the stone like a gemheart – those are so clearly the thoughts of a Singer (or Listener) who is familiar with the gemheart-spren bond. Humans wouldn’t see that at all; for example, when Dalinar saw one in his Purelake vision, he just described it as vanishing into the rocky ground and then ripping itself out.
Charging red horses, angry and galloping. The forms of men, killing and dying, shedding blood and reveling in it. Bones piled atop one another, making a hill upon which men struggled.
The red mist climbed up from the surging waves, rolling out onto an empty section of rock, northward along the rim of the water. It brought to her a lust for the battlefield. A beautiful focus, a Thrill for the fight.
L: And there’s the Unmade. Lovely.
A: Such a pretty sight, no? … Okay, no.
Bruised & Broken
At the very least, she hoped that Amaram’s band of malcontents would soak up arrows and spears long enough to let the Thaylen civilians evacuate.
L: I do love Jasnah, but let’s not overlook the fact that this woman’s got some pretty dark and troubling reactions to things. This just… reminds me all too much of Sadeas’s mentality about the bridge crews. Is Amaram himself a dick? Absolutely. Have his men been dicks? So far as we know. But one could argue that most of Bridge Four were dicks to begin with, too. Because they were beaten down and broken. How do we know that Amaram’s men aren’t as well? If led by someone better, could they be better men? I’m betting so. Yes, she’s trying to save civilians and that’s a noble goal, but Jasnah callously throwing their lives away without a second thought doesn’t make her a good person, and it makes me worry for her in her new role as Queen. I’m hoping that this is the beginning of an upwards character arc for her and not an indication of trouble on the horizon….
A: You make a good point, and one I’m not very happy about acknowledging. It’s so easy to loathe Torol Sadeas, as well as Amaram, for the decisions they’ve made, but their decisions have affected other people. Sadeas shaped his army to support his goals; Amaram, while trying to make them a more disciplined group to match his own image, hasn’t made them any better. If you stop and think about it, Kaladin started out on the path to become a soldier in Sadeas’s army, until a set of Shards turned his path into slavery. What would he have become in that army? Would he have remained honorable? If so, is it fair to assume there are other men like him? Probably.
“The facts align,” Ivory said. “The truth that has always been, will now soon manifest to all. … You are correct. A traitor is.”
…
True to the information she’d been given, she found Renarin Kholin kneeling on the floor inside, head bowed. Alone.
A spren rose from his back, bright red, shimmering like the heat of a mirage. A crystalline structure, like a snowflake, thought it dripped light upward towards the ceiling. In her pouch, she carried a sketch of the proper spren of the Truthwatchers.
And this was something different.
L: We know so little about this even now, and I can’t wait to find out more. I am impressed with Jasnah’s resolve to take care of what she sees as a traitor in their midst, even though it’s someone she loves… however. The fact that her immediate reaction is to kill him rather than try to save him somehow highlights how very different she is from almost every other character in this series.
A: Why is that so easy to forget? She has frequently been callous to the point of brutality in dealing out what she sees as justice, but every time it comes up, I’m shocked all over again. Maybe it’s because of her (however reluctant) acceptance of Shallan, and the knowledge that her family loves her, and she them; I just seem to forget that there’s a hardness to her that I just don’t comprehend.
He’d done it again, to yet another group that trusted him. Just like with his family, whom he’d sold out in a misguided attempt at righteousness. Just like with his squad in Sadeas’s army, whom he’d abandoned for his addiction.
L: I feel so bad for Teft. That’s a lot of responsibility to shoulder.
A: I think it feels worse because the first one, which likely set the stage for all the rest of his betrayals, was so innocent. He was just a kid, and he thought he was getting help for his family; it wasn’t his fault the citylord’s solution was to kill them all. Who wouldn’t be broken by that?
“You don’t want me. I’m broken. Pick Lopen. Rock. Sigzil. Damnation, woman, I…”
L: It’s sad to me that Teft doesn’t realize that they’re all broken, in one way or another. Well. Except for Lopen, presumably, but maybe he just hides it better than most.
Ahead of them on the battlefield, the human ranks slumped, their banner wavering. A man in glittering Shardplate, sitting upon a white horse, led them.
Deep within his helm, something started glowing red.
…
“Go,” Odium whispered. “Kholin would have sacrificed you! Manifest your anger! Kill the Blackthorn, who murdered your highprince. Set your Passion free! Give me your pain, and seize this city in my name!”
The army turned and—led by a Shardbearer in gleaming Plate—attacked Thaylen City.
L: F***ing Amaram. But as much as I hate him… I can’t entirely blame him, here. Odium is right—they were going to be sacrificed. And it’s not just a self-preservation thing—his men were going to be sacrificed as well, and I do believe that Amaram, for all his faults, cared about the men under his command. Was he willing to sacrifice them if needs be, to further his own ends? Yes, as was proven when he had Kaladin’s men killed before taking the Shardplate that Kaladin refused. But a good commander does need to know when sacrifices must be made. He, like most Sanderson villains, did truly believe that he was doing the right thing.
Does this mean that I forgive him, or think that he doesn’t deserve his eventual fate? Oh, hell no. He deserves everything that’s coming to him. He allows Odium and the Unmade to get into his head and turn him against his own people. But I can see how he was maneuvered into this position.
A: Odium himself explains it:
“I’ve prepared these men for decades,” Odium said. “Men who want nothing so much as something to break, to gain vengeance…”
A: I don’t know how much of that you can give Odium direct credit for, because humans do still have agency. However, I have to admit that having Nergaoul hanging around Alethkar all the time, giving them the Thrill whenever they get into battle, would definitely turn them toward enjoying the fight. They’ve definitely been groomed to seek a confrontation.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“They knew,” Adolin said. “They led us here with that cursed vision.”
“Be wary,” Shallan whispered, “of anyone who claims to be able to see the future.”
“No. No, that wasn’t from him!” Kaladin looked between them, frantic, and finally turned to Syl for support. “It was like when the Stormfather… I mean…”
L: So… was this a misleading vision from Odium, or not?
A: I don’t think it was Odium; I think Adolin is misinterpreting here. After all, Dalinar is here, and he does very much need their help. The Shadesmar Exploration Society, though, has no reason (other than Kaladin’s vision) to have expected anything significant to be happening at Thaylen City; they went along with the plan because (they thought) it was a safely coalition-controlled Oathgate from which they could get anywhere they needed to go. To arrive and find all this, though… yeah, it looks bad. Since they don’t yet know what’s going on in the Physical realm, it’s easy to assume that this was all for them.
Squires & Sidekicks
Eth dead.
L: ::Bridge Four salute to the fallen::
A: ::salutes:: … ::sniffles::
Places & Peoples
Azish, Thaylen, Marati … a host of nationalities, these newly awakened singers were frightened, uncertain.
…
“We aren’t soldiers, ma’am. We’re fishers. What are we doing here?”
…
“It’s just that … Thaylen City? This is our home. We’re expected to attack it?”
… “They enslaved you. They tore your families apart, treated you like dumb animals. Do you not thirst for vengeance?”
“Vengeance?” the sailor said, looking to his fellows for support. “We’re glad to be free, But … I mean … some of them treated us pretty nice. Can’t we just go settle somewhere, and leave the Thaylens alone?”
A: This is the context for the title, as noted above. It brings up a major contrast between the different cultural backgrounds of some of the singers – reflecting several aspects of the different human cultures. The Alethi singers were perfectly happy to attack Kholinar, since the culture they had absorbed was war-like. The Thaylen (and other) nationalities aren’t taking to warfare nearly as easily, because they simply didn’t grow up with it. It appears, though, that there’s another difference: the Thaylen singers point out that they were treated pretty well, and they have no desire for any revenge on their former masters. This seems to imply that, as a whole, the Alethi treated their slaves rather poorly, so that a chance for revenge was eagerly accepted.
Weighty Words
“You know, Cultivation warned me that my memories would return. She said she was “pruning” me. Do you know why she did that? Did I have to remember?”
I do not know. Is it relevant?
“That depends upon the answer to a question,” Dalinar said. … “What is the most important step that a man can take?”
L: Here we go. (This is the most appropriate gif I have ever used.)
A: Very, very soon, he’s going to find out just how necessary it was, poor man.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
It came together with a frightening beauty. Their armada fleeing the storm. Their armies unprepared. The sudden evaporation of support
…
“He’s planned for everything.”
It is what he does.
A: This kind of freaked me out. A few weeks ago, we were talking about how Taravangian had carefully planned the messages that all came at once, resulting in the breakup of the coalition. Now we’re seeing that breakup as one of many things coming all at once to leave Dalinar & Thaylen City unprotected. It makes me think that either Taravangian’s entire Diagram is a “gift” from Odium, or else that Odium has been able to see everything he was planning and build on it. I’m not sure which would be worse.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Timbre pulsed to Peace in her pouch, and Venli rested her hand on it.
A: Just in case it wasn’t already obvious, I’ll mention that back in Words of Radiance, after Eshonai took on stormform, she heard a voice screaming every time she attuned Peace. Clearly, Timbre really likes that rhythm.
Awe-inspiring Artwork
L: I’m really curious about the 1400’ notation on the bottom. Is that feet? It must be, because it looks like it says “to shore” beside it.
A: Yes, it must be feet. In the Physical realm, presumably this would also be the distance horizontally from the shore to the Oathgate platform? I wonder why this one has a bridge. The Kholinar Oathgate didn’t, did it? Maybe the “land” in Shadesmar (water in Alethkar) is too far away from the platform.
Next week, we’re onto Chapter 116 on its lonesome. From here on out the climax is ramping up in intensity, so prepare yourselves for the Sanderlanche!
Alice is delighted to be taking her daughter to the Washington All-State Honor Choir this weekend, and hopes to finish Part One of the beta read while the girl is in rehearsals. Never a dull moment!
Lyndsey is heading down to KatsuCon in Washington, DC this weekend with a carful of cosplays and friends. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or Instagram.
Surely the Diagram is from Cultivation, not Odium. Like he made it after being changed by her, and several things in it seemed to catch Odium off-guard.
Which actually makes me a little wary of her- If we’re supposed to be careful of any form of future sight, what are we to make of the fact that both of the living Rosharan Shard can empower future sight? Like I feel reasonably confident that she’s working against Odium, but I’m not sure if we can trust that that also means she’s working to the best interests of our protagonists.
But anyway- the scene with the Thaylen Singers being reluctant o attack is a very important one, I feel. It shows us that the conflict remains a lot more complicated than just ‘Singer vs. Humans’. Lots of Singers are not super inclined to buy what Odium’s selling. Which is good, the last thing we want is for them to just end up feeling like an entire race of Bad Guys.
Originally i thought this too and was confused, why this spren was refered to as “spy” when they know its a thunderclust. When i read The scene again after Oathbringer its kind of obvious the spren was just a Riverspren corrupted by Sja-anat
huh? Moash didnt join with yelig-nar.
Anyways, i was really surprised, that in Shadesmar Yelig-nar has the size of a normal person
I cant agree with that, Sadeas soldiers just happened to be there, using your soldiers to defend a city is not sacrificing them,, Dalinar is not killing them in an unnecessary way. Maybe Jasnah with her cynic charakter views them as this, but Dalinar? No, i dont think so.
I 100% agree on the rank-and-file Sadeas soldiers. I think the reason that Sadeas is SA’s Slytherin House– at least, I hope the reason, having faith in Brandon’s writing abilities– is to subvert that characterization, to get to know them under better leadership and set up a redemption arc.
I think Jasnah has a very high IQ, but a very low EQ (Emotional Quotient). You can see this even in the first book, when she murders those thieves in cold blood. In that sense she’s very much like Smart Taravangian.
I think her decision to murder Renarin (though, in her mind, “execute” might be the preferred term), was purely logic-based, but unlike Smart-T, she’s not completely devoid of emotion, and her decision to eventually spare him is such a turning point. Not only does it prove that the future is not immutable, but, as I’ve mentioned in a previous comment, without Renarin there to heal Adolin after he comes back from Shadesmar, Adolin dies, and Dalinar has lost BOTH his sons on the same night and very well might have succumbed to Odium’s temptation and doomed them all.
So a bunch of things:
Could there be good people among Amaram’s army? Sure! We never do know what happened to Kaladin’s sergeant back in the day. I believe he ended up guarding Amaram’s little outpost that Shallan infiltrated. But we don’t know what happened after. However we have seen all the way since Way of Kings, the soldiers (which the bridge crews are not included in as they are treated as the lowest of the totem pole, and also didn’t need to be used at the battle of Thaylenah) that end up at the war camps under Sadeas’s banner are malcontents, or opportunistic. The Sadeas warcamp itself is disorganized and in some ways lawless. Finally Jasnah and Dalinar sent Amaram and his men to help with the restoration of Thaylenah with the hopes that doing good honest work, to help your fellow man, would help re-integrate them with the rest of the forces. That only resulted in Amaram being offended that he personally was being wasted. So I do not think Jasnah was out of hand with her comment. Could any of those soldiers be redeemed? Sure! They could be redeemed helping and saving the lives of the innocent Thaylens. The troops were lined up and prepared. They were tactically fielded and they were not being wasted. They were put there to hit the parsh as they landed, and if overwhelmed, could easily retreat to behind the walls with minimal losses. So Amaram’s soldiers were most definitely not a sacrificial lamb in this case.
edit: also didn’t Dalinar end up buying most of Sadeas’s bridgemen? That were the people Kaladin was training and restocking Dalinar’s troops with during Oathbringer? So they did get another chance.
Regarding Jasnah and Renarin. Every instance we see with Jasnah she deliberates, and contemplates extensively till she feels there is absolutely no other conclusion or way. We see her holding back from Aesudean and Kabsal till she is absolutely sure. Shallan even comments on when she first meets the highprinces, that Jasnah would say not to assume, and get more information. That Jasnah is willing to potentially go through with the plan shows the preponderance of evidence smacking her in the face. Ivory says it, they know for a fact there is a traitor. They know for a fact Renarin’s spren isn’t a normal truthwatcher spren. They have research pointing to foretelling being of Odium. They know that Renarin has been in every important meeting. They know the traitor is actively acting against Team Honor. The tragedy is Taravangian did such a good job hiding in plain sight, that Jasnah concluded the wrong traitor. From what we have seen of Jasnah, she never jumps to conclusions. That all the evidence points to Renarin is the sad part.
As posted in a prior thread, as per WoB Amaram is all about appearing honorable, than actually being honorable. He is meant to represent the worse side of the Alethi. If Amaram was truly worried about his men. If he truly cared about their well being, then his first thought in his mind would not have been about how is glory is being wasted helping the Thaylens. If he truly cared, then Jasnah would not have stated earlier in the book that Amaram would see the army destroyed and torn apart, just so he can be seen as the savior.
@@.-@ LazerWulf
She only pursued and killed those thieves after extensive research. The local authorities weren’t handling the situation due to bribes. Taravangian tried to fix it multiple times, but was ignored. Multiple people were killed over the course of months. Not just robbed. Killed. Shallan knew the men intended to kill both her and Jasnah. So again, I feel Jasnah only acts on a course of action when she feels it is truly the only solution.
Personally I do not see Renarin as a turning point. I see it as a stark and clear moment of showing her love for her family. A love we see throughout the books. Jasnah has always been reserved and low-key. But the care is there. Her love and respect for Taravangian when she thought he was a man of honor and sought peace. Her love and care for her colleagues regardless whether they are male or female, or where they are from. Her love and care for the world with how she drove herself so hard to prevent the desolations. Her love and care for Shallan as her ward. Her love and care for Dalinar as he dealt with his religious crisis. Renarin I feel is just the clearest and largest example of Jasnah’s love. I think it is a beautiful moment that shows her true character behind the strong face she presents.
@6 Scath
Don’t forget Jasnah’s proposed “Final Solution” to the parshman problem.
Jasnah’s true character is that of a very intelligent and capable woman who cares deeply for her family. If you’re not a member of her family, but some escaped parshman slave, Jasnah is somewhat less caring.
This is an interesting chapter.
A few months ago, I launched the discussion on whether or not we trusted Jasnah to become a good Queen. I would define a good Queen as someone who is able to be firm when decrees need being passed, but also being able to listen to all sides of an argument without appearing condescending or haughty. I would define a good Queen as someone who cares about the people, their needs, fears, and hope enough for their well-being to stand in a decisive factor when the time is appropriate. A good Queen would also try to negotiate, to write terms, to make concessions first and before she raises arms. A good Queen would try to make allies as opposed to brow-beat all opposition down to the ground.
In light of this chapter, I will admit, unless she dramatically changes her approaches, I fear Jasnah simply is not “good Queen” material. Yes, she is ruthless, authoritative, intelligent, but at the same time she is condescending, she does look down on most people, and her go-to answer to opposition tend to focus on killing more than finding alternate solutions. In this chapter, she went even farther by rating out the life of Amaram’s soldiers merely because they were… Amaram’s soldiers.
Last week, it was argued Tanalan’s men probably didn’t support his vengeful rebellion and paid the price for his pride. I counter-argued there were no narrative indications they were not in favor of the rebellion: they might have been actively supporting Tanalan. This week, Jasnah casually decides Amaram’s men can die in masses to allow civilians to escape which falls too close to Dalinar’s actions at the Rift to escape my notice. I am terribly ill-at-ease with this line of thought because while Sadeas was a bad person, it isn’t said the totality of his soldiers were bad persons. Even if they did embrace their Highprince’s views, do they still deserved to be casually rated off by their own allies simply for not being in love with the Kholin dynasty? How far down the rank can one Highprince’s treachery go? And what do we do with an army turned treacherous but who’s treachery was fueled by the Kholin’s dynasty lies when it came to the death of their former Highprince? Dalinar, Jasnah might not have known the truth, but Adolin did lie. He is part of the Kholin dynasty. It makes Amaram’s soldiers grievance all the more… justified.
So back to Jasnah… this woman… is written as one of the heroic protagonists of the story, but she does not read like one to me. The fact her go-to reaction is always to kill opposition is too reminiscent of how Gavilar and younger Dalinar dealt with it back in their days. It thus seems to me the Kholins actually put on the throne the one person who still follows Gavilar’s former line of thoughts: opposition needs to be exterminated. The fact Jasnah spares Renarin is meaningless, to me, given the fact her first reaction is to slay him: not help him, not try to break the bond with his corrupted spren, not finding out more, but to kill him.
Sure, she does not do it, but it tells us lots on her character and I am not sure what it tells us is… positive which is why unless she dramatically changed her approaches, I am not convinced Jasnah as Queen is… a good idea. Maybe it’ll work, but I suspect it’ll work in the same manner Gavilar’s rule work: by making sure there is no one alive to oppose him.
@7 dptullos
Key word, proposed. And what exactly did she propose? The parsh are an enemy. Even if they are sympathetic to the human cause, they will get possessed by the fused who aren’t. What did she do? She got Kaladin to use the windrunners to get more information. She also proposed research into alternatives.
And yet we see numerous instances where she treats with care and respect those outside her family. I will be happy to reference the page locations if you like. I would rather not type them out and make a huge block of text.
(side note, not trying to be snarky. just trying to be helpful)
@@@@@ Scath, dptullos
Actions speak louder than words. As much as I sympathize with the parsh about their situation, I don’t begrudge Jasnah’s proposal. This is after all war and you have to be practical in war. She didn’t kill Renarin and that the difference. If you do something that you aren’t expected to do, doesn’t that make all the difference? We talk about Dalinar accepting responsibility or Elkohar starting to make good decisions are important to their redemption. How is this not the same thing? (I don’t count this as “redemption,” but the point stands).
@@@@@Gepeto
As Scath mentioned, the soldiers are a little bit more prepared than the average civilian. Are we really supposed to feel bad just because a character doesn’t care for everyone who might die in a war because they are on the wrong side? Because the parsh still had it worse during the Battle of Narak.
You also don’t have to be a “nice” person to be a good ruler. You just have to be respected. Not everyone is going to like you and all it takes is one assassin for that to matter. That she didn’t kill her cousin is very good, in light of the knowledge that she didn’t have. How else would you have confronted Renarin? How do you flush out a potential spy that no one else has figured out exists, assuming you aren’t the reader?
I am very curious about how the Fused manage to inhabit stone and under what conditions. Obviously, there must be some limitations, because both in Kholinar and here the thunderclasts manifest outside the city walls, when it would have been more advantagious for them to appear within the city proper, so that Odium forces could attack from the inside and outside simultaneously. I also imagine that not just any patch of rock would do – must the stone have a gem embedded somewhere in it to allow the body formation?
I think that Jasnah’s thought reveals her low opinion of Amaram’s leadership ability and his army’s competence, rather than eagerness to sacrifice them. They are soldiers – it is their job to protect the civilians, but she doesn’t trust them to do so adequately. Comparison with dear old Torol is wholly misguided, because she didn’t put them in this position, nor did she plan to throw away their lives, she just doesn’t expect any effectiveness from them.
And BTW, I have a couple of issues regading the takeover of Sadeas army – does it really make sense that they would care so much about Torol? He didn’t strike me as a commander that would have been fanatically loved. I guess that tribalism is a powerful drug? But it is still deeply weird that 100% of the soldiers would have been enraged enough to be susceptible to posession. You’d think that there would have been some horrified holdouts. Because indeed both Kaladin and Teft are former Sadeas Princedom’s soldiers and there is no reason to think that there were absolutely no others like them still in the ranks. One of the things that made me unsure about the 1-year-gap is that I expected to see how the remaining Sadeas’ soldiers are going to be handled.
My second issue is – where is their female support personal? They were on the building detail in Thaylenah, so they should have had their scribes and engineers with them to manage supply and direct the work at the very least. But we don’t see any women in this scene, nor will Ash find any later when she creeps into their camp. Did they just vanish into thin air?!
And speaking of poor Teft – I wonder if a Skybreaker didn’t have something to do with his Citylords’ over the top murderous reaction to the Envisagers’ existence. The Skybreakers definitely would have wanted to eliminate any sect devoted to attempts to gain Radiancy.
We already knew that not all new singers want to fight and subjugate humans – the Azish ones turned to legal negotiations before the Fused took them in hand and drove them off, but reaction of the Thaylen ones is also heartening. I can’t help but think that singers absorbing human cultures that they lived amongst is part of Cultivation’s plan.
I am 100% with Scáth about Jasnah!
Back when Jasnah killed those men in the first book, it seemed like the arguments we made about it were more along the line of what we considered right or wrong. I know I assumed that, if it came down to debating with her, Jasnah and I would agree to general principles even if we were used to applying them to vastly different worlds and civilizations.
In this book, it really sunk in that Jasnah is Alethi. For me (and, I’m assuming, most of us) killing people is very low on the list of ways to deal with a problem. While there may be a list of situations where I would see it as perfectly justified, that’s the difference between us. I look at rules that say when it’s right, justified, and allowed (those are three different things, and I feel best when all three align when judging an act).
Jasnah, if anything, goes the other way. Killing people always seems to be an option for her. Her moral restraint is in having rules not to kill. She generally won’t kill until certain standards have been met (being reasonably sure of guilt, reasonably sure killing will deal with a problem, and so on).
I’m still kind of wrapping my head around it since I don’t know what kind of ruler Jasnah will be. To the extent that she understands from study and observation what a good ruler should be, I think she will try to be that, even if it means not doing ruthless things she doesn’t have ethical problems with. But, that’s still a frightening gap.
Understanding she was wrong about Renarin might be the beginning of a big change. Or it might not. I can see a lot of ways she could go. Some of them are good, some of them are terrifying.
@12 Ellynne
Heh, well put. You pretty well summed up my feelings about Jasnah. I find her to be interesting, and I enjoy her POVs, but she does have a ruthless streak that shows she is a product of her culture. I am also hoping that her realizing she was wrong about Renarin will grow to something greater in her.
@10: How else would I have confronted Renarin? Well, I wouldn’t have walked to his back with a Shardblade in my hands. I wouldn’t have planned to kill him unaware because I would have found out proofs he perhaps was a traitor.
I would have first tried to talk to him, try to get him to admit the truth, on his own volition, before I expose my knowledge. I would have tried to get additional information from him: how did it happen, did he choose to bond a corrupted spren, what does it even mean to bound a corrupted spren, how does it affect his thinking. Jasnah knows next to nothing: all she knows is Glys has been corrupted. She does not know what it actually means or implies, but she drastically jumps to the supposedly logical conclusion Renarin needs to die. Then she spares him and she lets him go free which makes no sense: it is either Renarin is a threat or he is not, but nothing Jasnah did allow her to conclude either way. It was either “kill” or “not kill”, but there was no… questioning.
So this is how I would have dealt with the situation: I would have tried to get more information, tried to get Renarin to talk, tried to see what it means before jumping to the conclusion Renarin is a traitor who needs to die. I would have thought of killing as a last mean, not as the first solution.
The fact Jasnah intuitively jumps to the drastic solution is exactly why I am not convinced about her as Queen. There is something irrevocably wrong with her thought process for her to always pick out the option which implies killing such as her proposition of a genocide. Sure, nothing came out of it, but like the thieves in the alley, Jasnah’s solution to most problems seem to involve killing. First, she thinks of killing, then she sometimes decide against it, but killing always comes first as a solution and that bothers me.
@12: It might be the Alethi way, but Dalinar has started to attempt to change those ways. I fear putting Jasnah on the throne basically puts the Kholin dynasty back to square one, back to the days where dissident opinion were being dealt with violence, back to when Gavilar was King.
@12 Ellynne
So, I am hesitant to dig in too deep because this all comes up pretty clearly in later chapters, just it is in little snippets of each chapter. So I will just list the basics of each
-Jasnah suspected something up with Renarin since the Everstorm was predicted (her words). So this was not a spur of the moment conclusion. She has been researching for awhile
-Jasnah researched the type of spren Renarin claimed he had. She waited till she had confirmation they did not match
-Renarin lied about being a Truthwatcher (Jasnah’s words). It could be said that Renarin didn’t know any better, but we get his own PoV where he admits to knowing that Glys was different. He kept that information to himself and hid it
-Renarin has been hiding his abilities for awhile. We as readers know it was because he was afraid, but from the outside it appears very different. Jasnah had extended surveillance on him to try and find out, as well as spoke with him on it.
-Jasnah had Lys, and any other assassin on retainer. Not to kill. She had a standing offer that if any were ever contracted to kill her or any of her family, to contact her, and she would match and exceed the offer for information
-Even after all the information Jasnah had on Aesudean (confirmed via WoB), she still held back going through with it to get more information. Even after all the information Jasnah had on Renarin (shown in the book), she still held back to find out more information. The murderers at Kharbranth have been operating for months, and have killed multiple people with no sign of being stopped or stopping.
That personally does not sound like someone trigger happy. It just seems to me that we tend to see Jasnah after she has already extensively researched and deliberated over something, and she is coming to her conclusion. But it does not sound to me like killing is always her first option. Actually it sounds like it is her last. Just we always see her after she has checked off every other option. She is currently a side character, so there isn’t the page time to show her agonizing over her research at length. We see glimpses. So quick you can blink and miss them. But it is there. But at the end of the day, everyone is going to read into a character what they are going to read. Guess I will just have to wait till the back five where Jasnah becomes a main character for what I feel her true character is to be shown more to fore.
Little interesting tidbit. In the original draft of Way of Kings, Jasnah was the one to discover Taln was really a herald, and she defended him and even saved his life. Definitely excited to find out more about her!
Questioner
Anything about Jasnah.
Brandon Sanderson
Jasnah, I would say, is the character who changed the least between the draft I wrote in 2002 and the final version. I always knew who she was and how she was going to turn out, and she stayed really consistent. So I’m really excited, particularly for the back five, which will have more of a focus on her. I’ve started to tease in some viewpoints, but you’ll really get to know her starting in like books six, seven.
Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)
Questioner
For the next Stormlight [book], will there be chapters from Jasnah’s perspective?
Brandon Sanderson
There will be, I believe, at least one chapter from her viewpoint. I could change that but the outline has at least one from her. It’s dangerous to do too many from her viewpoint because she’s eventually going to be a main viewpoint character, and she has a large chance of taking over a narrative that she’s part of.
Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)
@@@@@ Gepeto,
We don’t know exactly what kind of research Jasnah did to conclude what she did. My understanding is that she still thinks that he is a threat, but that she couldn’t bring herself to eliminate that threat because he is family. So she is choosing to trust him, so that’s a personal decision overpowering her logical decision. To me, that is progress.
@6 Scath: I do not disagree with you, but the decision to kill the thieves was still a logical one (supported by mountains of evidence), not an emotional one.
And when I said the incident with Renarin was a turning point, I didn’t mean with her character, I meant a turning point in the plot (because if Renarin dies they’re all ****ed), but thinking about it now, I do believe that this is the first time we see her make an emotional decision, rather than the logical one, which gives her a leg up on Smart-T.
Reference to Kaladin and his desperation to protect, in this case most especially to guard Dalinar (as he will)?
@Gilphon
All Shards can predict the future, some better than others. The warning is not correct, except to the extent that one shouldn’t fully trust anyone (as Hoid hints at–of course he also has limited futuresight).
Anyone who burns atium on Scadrial has futuresight, as do all Returned on Nalthis.
Note that Jasnah and Ivory are right about there being a traitor, but it’s Taravangian. And of course Sja-Anat, the other way, if we believe her.
Other than lying about what he was, did Renerin actually DO anything to make him a traitor? Do we just assume that Glys was talking to Odium and spying?
We have seen some other instances where the Alethi women have been depicted as ruthless. The culture has shaped all of the Alethi to a somewhat war monger outlook on life. Plus, Jashna was Gavilar’s daughter. She was raised during the time of his conquests and had to be influenced by that environment. It is to her credit that even though her first reaction is “off with their heads” she thinks it through before taking any action.
As for the front line soldiers, I think in most wars they end up being the “cannon fodder” when the battles consist of old style mass attacks with two front lines clashing.
@17 LazerWulf
I respect your opinion and wish you luck with it. I feel there were other situations where Jasnah did in fact make emotional decisions (regarding Elhokar, Shallan(multiple times), Taravangian, and Dalinar) off the top of my head. But to each their own
@19 goddessimho
Well it is stated in this chapter. Odium out thought them. Odium had everything in place exactly when he needed it for them to lose. Jasnah knew the battle was already lost because of it. She also knew there was a spy working against them that was privy to all of their secrets which allowed Odium to shatter the Council, and position his troops. So based on the evidence, if Renarin is the spy, he basically won this battle for the enemy side. Just turns out it was Taravangian instead.
As to the soldiers, we already read why they were arrayed the way they were:
Oathbringer page 1082
Amaram’s troops flooded out of the gates to seize the ground between bay and city; there wasn’t enough room for them to maneuver on top of the wall. The Alethi were field troops, and their best chance of victory would involve hitting the parshmen while they disembarked. Behind them, Thaylen troops mount the wall, but they were not veterans. Their navy had always been their strength.
Oathbringer page 1089
“Actually” Navani said “we’re better off than it looks. The new Sadeas is a renowned tactician. His soldiers are well rested and – if lacking in discipline – known for their tenacity. We can attack the enemy before it finished deploying. Then, if they rebound and overwhelm us with numbers, we can pull back into the city until we get reinforcements”
So it really does not sound like they were used like sacrificial lambs. It sounds like a sound tactic and deployment of troops to me. They were waiting for reinforcements from Urithiru. Just Taravangian made sure that got delayed. But that is just my reading of it.
edit: also keep in mind, the revelation about Odium going to attack Thaylenah is a very recent thing. Moving armies, even via oathgates is time consuming. They fielded Amaram’s troops because he was literally the closest available army. They were working on getting the rest there in time.
@10 – Actions might speak louder than words, but Jasnah tossing in a genocide option is not something you do. Ever. You just don’t.
@16: I do not disagree, but I will criticize the depth of her research and her hasty conclusions given Renarin stops being a problem the moment she remembers she loves him. One moment, he needs to die because his spren has been corrupted without being offered a chance to explain himself, the next he is happily jumping around on roofs with Jasnah cheering him over the fact he is a Radiant.
This was rather inconsistent. Jasnah was willing to murder her cousin over a threat he might pose, but then changes her mind and decides he no longer is a threat and can be trusted in the battle against Odium. Hence, I will criticize her research here: it seems to me she jumped to conclusions on incomplete information, but then changed her mind and decided all was good because her information was incomplete and her conclusion might have been hasty.
It might count as progress, but Jasnah still comes across as the person who will too readily murder to solve issues. I do not find this aspect of her personality a desirable trait in an absolute monarch which is why I think Jasnah probably isn’t the right person to keep Alethkar evolving towards a better society. She will be… more of the same, IMHO.
@19: Nothing. Renarin did nothing to deserve being killed because his spren is corrupted. He has visions of the future, but he hasn’t used them to harm the Radiant, he only used them to warn them of the Everstorm. This is why I am criticizing Jasnah for jumping to the conclusion Renarin needs to die even if she does change her mind, it was a rather last-minute call. She can’t have found firm evidence of him being a dangerous traitor because there was none to be found.
I agree with the reviewers’ comments on Jasnah. She feels too much like Taravangian on a high-intelligence day for me to be comfortable with.
ASOIAF cured me of thinking that hitting the low point of a story meant things were going to get better. For writers like Martin, things are always darkest right before they go pitch black.Thankfully, Sanderson doesn’t write that way.
Re: the traitor/spy – let’s not forget that Malata’s spren was also spying for Taravangian when he wasn’t there. The enemies knew things Taravangian “couldn’t” know, but Renarin could.
Ellyne’s comment about how Jasnah’s actions in this chapter reminded her that Jasnah is Alethi is making me wonder something. We know Nergaoul has been using the Thrill to “prepare” the Alethi for years, and we’ve mostly seen the Thrill’s effect on soldiers. But not every Alethi is a soldier. What would the Thrill’s influence look like in someone who isn’t a dedicated front-line combatant? Maybe Jasnah’s ruthlessness is an example of that.
The hesitance of the Thalyen parsh makes me feel even worse for the parsh as a whole. Odium’s actions may have freed them from slavery, but it’s pretty clear he doesn’t actually care about them. He (and the Fused) aren’t listening to what the parsh actually want to do about their former masters–in some cases, that is “fight them”, but in others it’s not. So the poor parsh are still being exploited and subjugated, just by a different guy this time. Yeesh.
In my opinion, the biggest one would have been transferred/merged into Dalinar if he let Odium take away Dalinar’s pain.
Jasnah is the epitome of Machiavelli’s the ends justify the means. For her, it is us against them. If they are not truly with her, then they are against her. At this point, Jasnah does not trust Sadeas’ men (and she is ultimately proven correct; although not in the way she would have guessed.
I am surprised that not a single Sadeas soldier (at least from what we saw) was able to resist turning (or did not want to fight for Odium). To me it almost defies reason. I cannot imagine that every soldier in Sadeas’ troops thought like Sadeas/Amaram. Heck, Kaladin was from that princedom originally. In the WoK flashbacks, it seemed like Kaladin’s troops were not that bad. And we had one of Amaram’s guards who seemed more sympathetic than the other guard when Shallan was doing recon in WoR.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
So Jasnah with the benefit of her bond has fantastic powers that are a threat to virtually any other human on Roshar. She has reason to suspect Renarin possesses unknown but similarly extravagant powers. If she was correct about his alignment she was entirely justified in approaching him the way she did. Who knows what kind of powers he might unleash. Perhaps he was aligned with one of the unmade and could dwarf her own powers. I would think these are existential threats that show her justified caution in facing a threat.
Sanderson does not give us enough information about Jasnah to decide much of anything. We know next to nothing about how she became a radiant, what she did for almost an entire book, what tools she has available, and whether there are other events from her past that caused her to become super paranoid (which she is, though to be fair, they really are out to get her).
These are all concious decisions made by Sanderson to further the larger story arc, and also to keep some of his options open. Of all the characters, she would be the biggest wild card (with Lift being the other one). I think most of the main characters exist on some spectrum of morally grey, but the fact that we know so little about her, and only end up seeing her in action during really big moments, makes it alot easier to pick some of the darker shades of grey.
Gepeto @8. I think your dislike of Jasnah as a character colors your argument. On the other hand, my like of Jasnah as a character colors my opinion the other way. I think she will make a great queen. She is willing to listen and consider her options. But when she has to make a decision, she will act and act decisively. Sometime you have to go all in and other times you have to walk away. I think she will handle that balance well. Maybe not perfect every time. But then, very few people are perfect.
I guess it is one of a number of things Stormlight Archive related we disagree upon. Hopefully, both of us will live long enough to read the remaining books to find out the answer.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@19 @24
I dont think Glys is a spy for Odium
Odium just doesnt know things he would know, if Glys would be a spy, for example Shallan being a Lightweaver instead of an elsecaller. Also i do believe, that Sja-anat actually tries to be on the heroes side.
@29: I do agree our personal like/dislike of the characters, for reasons which are personal to each of us, does color how we view them. I am certainly guilty of this on more than one occasion.
It is true I generally dislike Jasnah. I use the word “generally” here because I do not loath her like I loath Gavilar Kholin (definitely my most hated character in the books), but I do not like her either. I find too many of her personality traits fall close to those I hate in Gavilar to feel comfortable about her. There is also the fact I think I would strongly dislike Jasnah, if I were to meet her in real-life.
I have worked with people who believed they were smarter than everyone else, who had a “higher IQ”, who had good reasons to think they were smarter than everyone else. They don’t tell you to your face, they don’t brag, but their demeanor towards other people just speaks for itself. In an argument, they have this way to wrap it up, to voice it out which makes you feel idiotic for ever having it brought up. They do not try to be condescending, not on purpose, but their lack of consideration for other people’s opinion or thought process just shines through most of their interactions. Hence, if I worked with Jasnah, I’d probably think she is very smart and very good at her work, but I’d also think she is arrogantly condescending and keeps on making everyone feel as if they were lesser than her. I dislike this attitude because life taught me no matter how smart you think you are, there is always someone smarter. Also, just because someone is theoretically less smart than you are does not mean what they have to say is not worth listening nor they can’t score points nor actually have thought of something you haven’t.
This being said, I also work with incredibly intelligent people who do not have this attitude, who are incredibly nice too, and never think other people are less than they are. This, I believe, is the key. Jasnah believes she is smarter than other people: it causes her to dismiss other people very quickly, to be impatient with them, to snap at them, and to act in ways others will interpret as condescending (even if it perhaps wasn’t her intentions). With Jasnah as with some people in real-life, it is this “act of superiority” and this lack of humility when put next to other people which generate a personality I find very off-putting.
Hence, the very same personality traits which had Jasnah become many readers favorite are exactly the ones which made me dislike her. And they also are personality traits I am not convinced work well in a leader. Those work colleagues I referred to… they were terrible in teams. They made everyone feel bad about their own skills, they took ownership where they had no business doing so, and they were just not good team players. They worked much better alone. On the reverse the super smart but humble colleagues are great in teams and have great leadership potential.
So let’s RAFO about this. The way I see it, I think the narrative could swing both ways: it is either Jasnah is, as you said, well-equipped to be a great Queen or, as I say, her fall-outs create problems.
@21 Austin
Personally I keep going back to how she uses an extreme example to illustrate a point. I honestly feel if she was truly advocating extermination, then why would she refer to it as an atrocity? Further she never argues for it again. But I understand that is how you read it, and I wish you luck with your theory!
@24 Wetlandernw
I agree
@25 Nina
Could be. Though I think it is a point in Jasnah’s favor that it is never mentioned her feeling the Thrill, and she did not switch sides along side Sadeas’s men. Dalinar felt the thrill when it took over the soldiers. Jasnah made no mention of it. But maybe we just didn’t see her PoV in that moment. Though I will be honest, I lean towards my own interpretation
I agree, the Parsh are definitely getting the raw deal from Odium here. They are just tools to him to achieve his own aim and manipulating them along the way. I hope through Venli they will see the truth.
@26 AndrewHB
I think the idea is that the Thrill helped whip them up into a frenzy, which left them open to the spren. We have seen in other books as well those with high emotions (both negative and positive) become more open and susceptible to investiture.
I think it is also of note that Odium whips them up saying Dalinar is the cause and to kill him, yet as Dalinar walks through the breach, the soldiers just part around him. So Odium’s comments to me are just to rile them up and get them more open to possession, so that the spren can then control them.
@27 Tommy
I agree
@28 Nik the Heratik
I agree. Makes me all the more excited for the later five books where we dive in deeper with Jasnah. Yeesh waiting at least 10 years is going to be truly a test of patience! lol
@30 Havi
To clarify, we as readers know (or at least think/hope) Glys is not a spy. If he was, then oh boy poor Renarin. That kid has gone through enough, to have even his spren potentially betray him? Yeesh.
All we were saying is that it is reasonable from the evidence Jasnah had, to conclude that Renarin was the traitor, that was actively acting against the interests of Team Honor, which resulted in the failed battle that will result in lost lives and a huge blow to the resistance from Odium. The fact that Jasnah waited till arguably too late to act (everyone, Navani, Dalinar, Jasnah, and etc all realize Odium out maneuvered them) when all evidence points to Renarin being the cause (being able to see the future, having a spren aligned with Odium, keeping his powers from his family, hiding his spren to prevent the reveal, dodging Jasnah’s attempts at talking) I think shows a Jasnah that did everything she could to think of another way. But everything piled up to pointing to a Renarin that was deliberately working against Dalinar and Co.
edit: To add, even Renarin himself thought he was evil because of his visions. It is why he tormented himself so much over it. That would cause a person to be more hidden from people he used to be open with, and thereby more suspicious in my mind. Makes a person ask “what is he hiding? and why?” There are even hints he sees what is to happen, and he doesn’t mention anything to the rest. He mentions the gem reserve, but when asked why, he goes oh nothing. He winced when Dalinar mentioned meeting with Odium. He seemed to know more by Shallan regarding the death of Sadeas but again “suspiciously” said nothing. And that was Shallan’s reaction in that case.
As Nik pointed out, Jasnah had no reason not to expect Renarin to run, fight, or kill her. But when she saw him with tears in his eyes looking at her, she realized he was not the spy. He was the same genuine scared little boy that feels overwhelmed and at a loss for what to do. And she would be the same mother figure, holding and comforting him. Protecting and loving him despite it all. That she chose to believe in what she knew of her cousin, and trust him.
There is a beautiful brief, blink and you’ll miss it moment in later chapters that I hope will be covered in the re-read where Renarin says he can’t keep up, and Jasnah says he is a knight radiant. He says he doesn’t know what he is, and she says “I know what you are. You are my cousin. Family, Renarin. Hold my hand. Run with me.” All these moments are barely a paragraph long in each chapter, but I think though short, they are wonderful and have real punch as it were.
Actually given how little Jasnah comes up in the book, it is nice that we got to the part where she comes up (albeit brief) quite a few times and now I get to talk about her, being my favorite character :)
@32 and several Re: the soldiers turning
I agree with @32 that the point isn’t that all the soldiers were terrible people. The idea is that all the Alethi soldiers – from every princedom – have been training for years to seek and give-in to the thrill. They were open to it and when it came fully they were left open to vastly more influence than ever before. Only the most strong-willed and good-hearted would have stood a chance. Now, should there have been a couple? Some soldiers who had – even if they sought it- never used or felt the Thrill who wouldn’t be susceptible? Almost certainly. My thought is that these are few and far between and I could actually see them initially trying to stop their fellows around them only to be the first victims. After all, we all hate those that tell us what we’re doing is wrong.
@Isilel, AndrewHB
I think the anger at Torol Sadeas’s death is more about the Sadeas part than the Torol. If the country of Hypothetica assassinated a POTUS, Americans as a whole would be furious at the Hypotheticans, whether or not they had liked that particular president. As far as the Sadeas soldiers know, a rival Highprince murdered their Highprince and got away with it.
Not only that, but that same Highprince denied them their rightful chance at glory by making them stay back helping civilians. By our standards, of course, helping civilians is a noble thing, but from an Alethi viewpoint? Dalinar is rubbing in his victory by further humiliating the losers.
So they’re angry, they’re humiliated, they feel helpless, and then Odium shows up with his super-Thrill that’s strong enough to actually possess humans. I find it fully believable that they succumbed en masse.
Killing Renarin is not Jasnah’s first thought, we just see her in the moment before confronting him when she tries to convince herself that it might be necessary to kill him if he is the traitor.
Your artwork comment reminded me of Airplane, and Lloyd Bridges’ phone call to the tower. Something like “Have other planes stay at 28000… no, feet” :√O
@necessary_eagle: “As far as the Sadeas soldiers know, a rival Highprince murdered their Highprince and got away with it.”
In fact, that’s exactly what did happen, although Adolin doesn’t become Highprince until after this battle.
Has anyone here read The Wheel Of Time? I bring this up because Brandon compared to Jasnah to two characters from different cultures in said world and said that working on said work helped him understand her mindset better.
@38 – did he mention which characters?
Anyway, I have to admit I’m team Jasnah despite her flaws. I do think she’s a bit ruthless/overly pragmatic but as others have said, I DON’T think she actually rushes to those more ruthless choices as a first choice. And I always wondered if the ‘parsh genocide’ was really brought up as a non starter, kind of like the, ‘well, the only other option we have is genocide, so….’. But I do think the moment with Renarin may be an important moment for her – she had come to a certain conclusion, one that even seemed to fit the evidence (that Renarin was the traitor) and then realized things really weren’t what they seemed.
I also never saw her as particularly arrogant or condescending, but rather a brilliant woman who doesn’t suffer fools gladly. Yes, a bit abrasive or off putting but she knows her strengths as well. Now, I do agree that this will not automatically make her a good queen. I see some of myself in Jasnah and I’d run screaming from something like that :)
I can’t wait for more Jasnah books :)
@38: Ben, count me in those who’s interested in hearing which WoT characters can be compared to Jasnah. I am curious to find out what my thoughts and reactions were on those characters. Did I feel the same about them as I feel about Jasnah? If not, why would that be?
This would be an interesting exercise.
He did. Aviendha from the Aiel and Tuon from the Seanchen.
@42 BenW
Not wanting to end discussion over Jasnah and strong women in other novels, but with the help of the names, I was able to locate the WoB you are referring to. It is certainly open to interpretation, but I take that sentence as more “I had trouble getting into Jasnah’s mindset. I also had trouble with Aviendha and Tuon who are both from very different cultures”. I think this is supported by the second WoB I found below where he explains he felt challenged writing Aviendha and Tuon due to how they think so differently from the rest of the characters. But having said that, I can see that there are certainly similarities between Jasnah, Aviendha and Tuon
Questioner
You know how usually you read a good book and it will change your perspective on some aspect of life, do you ever finish writing a book yourself and– From your own writings do you ever “Ah I’ve never…”
Brandon Sanderson
It’s usually the research I do. Like when I’m like “I need to get in the mindset of this type of person” and I go read about it. I see the world in a different way after I become immersed in that.
Questioner
So what character have you written that was the hardest to imagine or get into?
Brandon Sanderson
Jasnah was very hard originally, and that took a lot of research into the mindset of people who think differently from myself. In The Wheel of Time books Aviendha and Tuon are both very different cultures so getting into those.
Questioner
How was it writing Mat? Was it pretty easy or–
Brandon Sanderson
No, Mat blindsided me. Mat I thought would be easy because Perrin and Rand were and I grew up with Mat, Perrin, and Rand, right? But the thing is Mat is a really hard character to write, meaning actual– you look at him, he says one thing, he does a second thing, but he thinks a third thing. And so there is a lot of contrast to him and I just started writing him naturally and I wasn’t getting all of that contrast because I was like “Oh I know who Mat is. Mat’s my–” But he was saying the things that he never said, if that makes sense? I got his actions right but I flipped what he said and what he thought. It was actually really hard to get him down.
Questioner
You mean how he would say that he was going to avoid trouble and then run straight into it?
Brandon Sanderson
Yes, it’s like “I’m going to avoid trouble”, he runs into trouble, and he’s thinking all the way about something completely separate, and then something else leaves his mouth.
Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)
Kirsty Cabot
Were there any characters you found difficult to connect with when writing the remaining books of The Wheel of Time series?
Brandon Sanderson
I’ve never really been able to get into Cadsuane as a character, and so she was the most difficult for me to do. I love Aviendha and Tuon, but both of them think so differently from the rest of the characters that they gave me a challenge.
Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)
@43 Thank you and no problem. I don’t mind the clarification at all. Memory can by fuzzy after all
@42: Interesting. I absolutely loved Aviendha, but I loathed Tuon with a burning passion.
@44 BenW
No problemo. Having never read Wheel of Time (except the first book, unfortunately just couldn’t get into it), reading about the two women was very informative. So thank you in return!
I will say I am still perplexed about the Oathgate spren. The black one is clearly an elsecaller spren and I believe was even confirmed via WoB. The confusion comes in with the other spren. It would make sense to assume that spren is a light spren, associated with the willshapers. It is described as sparkled with a multitude of colors, which definitely sounds “light” like to me, and the willshapers also get transportation, so it would make sense for that to be the spren also associated with oathgates. Yet the reachers are described as bronze metallic skinned and they are confirmed as being lightspren. So if both the reachers and potentially this spren are light spren, then why the appearance difference? Maybe it is a power level thing? But the elsecaller spren looks the same. The only other spren I can think of that is “light” like would be a truthwatcher spren, but how would progression and illumination assist in transportation? Would progression be empowering it?
Chiming in after a bit of a hiatus to say that I love the “Battle of Thaylen City” chapters! There is sooo much good stuff these next few chapters…
Re: the Unmade: I also took the hill-sized red-smoke creature to be Nergaoul; I don’t think we saw any representation of Yelig-Nar’s presence in Shadesmar, so maybe he’s already contained in the gem that Odium gives Amaram to swallow later. Or maybe Yelig-Nar just doesn’t show up in Shadesmar if he has a physical manifestation in the Physical realm?
(Which got me to thinking: who exactly was the huge spren (with the mountain sized claw) beneath the Kholinar Oathgate platform waaay back in Chapter 89? There were 3 Unmade in Kholinar, relatively close to the Oathgate, right (Ashertmarn, Sja-Anat and Yelig-Nar), and we didn’t see any of them visible in Shadesmar once our heroes were transported there; at least, not like we were able to see Nergaoul. So was the large hidden spren one of them? Or was it someone/thing else?)
Re: the “hundreds upon hundreds of strange spren” – I’m not sure if they were Fused spirts, or something else. After all, those strange spren appeared to enter/possess the bodies of Amaram’s men. Afterwards, they seemed to act like men who were just caught up in the Thrill fighting for Odium; not like Fused in human bodies.
On to Chapter 116!
Yelig-Nar is the human shaped black smoke walking next to Odium
@Scáth, I don’t think the Oathgates just use the Surge of Transportation. At least as used by Jasnah, that takes you to the Cognitive Realm. Then you have to spend days traveling across this Realm and re-enter the Physical. The Oathgates are instantaneous, which implies (to me) travel using the Spiritual Realm (where all places and times are one). Illumination as used by Renarin seems to be a connection to the Spiritual Realm. It’s tenuous, but it’s a connection.
@50 Carl
Although not confirmed either way, I am still of the personal belief that elsecallers and willshapers should both be able to do instantaneous transportation between two points, without having to “walk” in the cognitive realm. Part of what leads me to believe this is in every instance of radiant fabrials both in book and via WoB, we know the fabrials are more limited than radiant usage. Certain soulcasters can only do certain essences. They are reliant on gemstones. They cannot soulcast at range. The regrowth fabrial can only target so much. Meanwhile Renarin can full on be crushed and pop right back up. Same with Lift’s usage. So it wouldn’t make sense to me that the oathgates would be able to do more than a radiant using the surge. They should only be able to do less. So for instance requiring a static entry and exit point, versus a radiant being able to start anywhere and end anywhere, and so on. But though I believe it is implied via WoB, we do not have explicit confirmation. So I guess I will just have to hold onto my theory till we see Venli use the surge further.
@51 – Yep, there is definitely a WoB where he says that they are able to instantaneously travel once their develop their abilities. I will try to find it!
Havi@49-
Yes, in the next chapter Venli does see the black smoke figure after Odium shows up and after Nergaoul and all of Odium’s other forces (but the 6 Fused) have left Shadesmar.
My comment was about Yelig-Nar *in* Shadesmar. There is no mention of what he looks like (or of him even being there) from our Shadesmar Exploration folks. For all we know, Odium brings Yelig-Nar with him directly to Thaylen City…
@52 Austin
Please do! I would love to finally get confirmation on that!
@54 Instantaneous travel
–spoiler below–
I don’t have the WoB, but we see this elsewhere in the Cosmere in Elantris using the AeonDor, so it would seem to fit in world.